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	<title>Comments on: Open Thread: Would You Join a Union?</title>
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	<link>http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/</link>
	<description>Rebooting the workforce</description>
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		<title>By: ben</title>
		<link>http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-143497</link>
		<dc:creator>ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2007 06:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-143497</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Union !== professional association.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;A union negotiates for wages and preserves the right to strike (in theory if not in practice).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;A professional association ensures that practitioners maintain a reasonably high level of competence and conduct, with the intent of preserving the credibility of its members (and by extension, their profession).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Also, my earlier comments were in reference to developers and designers, not bloggers.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;My slam on libertarians is down to the fact that a lot of them would just as soon prefer the market remain in its presently b0rked and Wild-West-ish state, even though in my (well-informed) opinion, the status quo makes it harder for Web workers to be taken seriously as professionals.  (The next time I get compared to someone&#039;s goddamn nephew, I swear... ohnevermind.)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m trying to come up with something intelligent and well-informed about how these realities apply specifically to bloggers, but in point of fact I can&#039;t.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;So I won&#039;t.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Union !== professional association.</p>

<p>A union negotiates for wages and preserves the right to strike (in theory if not in practice).</p>

<p>A professional association ensures that practitioners maintain a reasonably high level of competence and conduct, with the intent of preserving the credibility of its members (and by extension, their profession).</p>

<p>Also, my earlier comments were in reference to developers and designers, not bloggers.</p>

<p>My slam on libertarians is down to the fact that a lot of them would just as soon prefer the market remain in its presently b0rked and Wild-West-ish state, even though in my (well-informed) opinion, the status quo makes it harder for Web workers to be taken seriously as professionals.  (The next time I get compared to someone&#8217;s goddamn nephew, I swear&#8230; ohnevermind.)</p>

<p>I&#8217;m trying to come up with something intelligent and well-informed about how these realities apply specifically to bloggers, but in point of fact I can&#8217;t.</p>

<p>So I won&#8217;t.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Keith Casey</title>
		<link>http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-143115</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Casey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-143115</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;Meanwhile, the whole idea is horribly offensive to the Heinlein-inspired libertarians who make up a measurable proportion of the folks who make their bread behind a keyboard, mouse, and display.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I find it interesting that blogging has been around for effectively 10 years.  It was exclusively tech-types until 2004 or so and is now including more and more reporters, writers, etc.  It&#039;s a complete shift...  but more importantly, it&#039;s bringing people to blogging who are politically and professionally diametrically opposed to the ideas of pay for merit instead of &quot;seniority&quot; and other arbitrary measures.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;Done right, it would still leave plenty of room for the n00bs (and the penny-paring customers who insist on the privilege of hiring them).&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;No, it won&#039;t.  Look at any auto company.  When there are layoff, who goes first?  My wife was a professional knitting blogger for a short period and paid relatively well for it.  If the system was &quot;unionized&quot; positions like that couldn&#039;t just &quot;pop up&quot;... they would go to whoever was next in line.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Group insurance plans, etc are available numerous places... the various professional societies, local chambers of commerce, a few college alumni groups, and I&#039;ve even seen them at churches.  Why spend the time or effort to duplicate that?&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Meanwhile, the whole idea is horribly offensive to the Heinlein-inspired libertarians who make up a measurable proportion of the folks who make their bread behind a keyboard, mouse, and display.</em></p>

<p>I find it interesting that blogging has been around for effectively 10 years.  It was exclusively tech-types until 2004 or so and is now including more and more reporters, writers, etc.  It&#8217;s a complete shift&#8230;  but more importantly, it&#8217;s bringing people to blogging who are politically and professionally diametrically opposed to the ideas of pay for merit instead of &#8220;seniority&#8221; and other arbitrary measures.</p>

<p><em>Done right, it would still leave plenty of room for the n00bs (and the penny-paring customers who insist on the privilege of hiring them).</em></p>

<p>No, it won&#8217;t.  Look at any auto company.  When there are layoff, who goes first?  My wife was a professional knitting blogger for a short period and paid relatively well for it.  If the system was &#8220;unionized&#8221; positions like that couldn&#8217;t just &#8220;pop up&#8221;&#8230; they would go to whoever was next in line.</p>

<p>Group insurance plans, etc are available numerous places&#8230; the various professional societies, local chambers of commerce, a few college alumni groups, and I&#8217;ve even seen them at churches.  Why spend the time or effort to duplicate that?</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: ben</title>
		<link>http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-143066</link>
		<dc:creator>ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2007 18:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-143066</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The idea of a full-on union is flat-out antithetical to the spirit of the Web&#039;s design, and impossible to achieve.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;A professional association with a member code of conduct, certification programs, dispute resolution facilities, and the ability to negotiate on behalf of its members (as a class) for discounts on health insurance and professional services is another story.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The problem to date has been undercapitalization on one hand, or corruption on the other.  In tandem with the challenge of accrediting certifications, the whole concept would face a lot of obstacles to implementation.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In the end, it would serve as a signalling mechanism quickly identifying those whose services deliver value in spite of (if not actually &lt;em&gt;because of&lt;/em&gt;) high bill rates.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Meanwhile, the whole idea is horribly offensive to the Heinlein-inspired libertarians who make up a measurable proportion of the folks who make their bread behind a keyboard, mouse, and display.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Done right, it would still leave plenty of room for the n00bs (and the penny-paring customers who insist on the privilege of hiring them).&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The idea of a full-on union is flat-out antithetical to the spirit of the Web&#8217;s design, and impossible to achieve.</p>

<p>A professional association with a member code of conduct, certification programs, dispute resolution facilities, and the ability to negotiate on behalf of its members (as a class) for discounts on health insurance and professional services is another story.</p>

<p>The problem to date has been undercapitalization on one hand, or corruption on the other.  In tandem with the challenge of accrediting certifications, the whole concept would face a lot of obstacles to implementation.</p>

<p>In the end, it would serve as a signalling mechanism quickly identifying those whose services deliver value in spite of (if not actually <em>because of</em>) high bill rates.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, the whole idea is horribly offensive to the Heinlein-inspired libertarians who make up a measurable proportion of the folks who make their bread behind a keyboard, mouse, and display.</p>

<p>Done right, it would still leave plenty of room for the n00bs (and the penny-paring customers who insist on the privilege of hiring them).</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: J Lane</title>
		<link>http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-141780</link>
		<dc:creator>J Lane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 01:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-141780</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I will never work for a union again.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I spent almost 10 years working in a union position, and it drove me nuts.  My job changed considerably over the 10 year period (in terms of responsibility), yet I never received more than my yearly pay increment.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The management uses the union to their advantage in these circumstances.  &quot;We can&#039;t negotiate a pay raise with you because your pay is collectively negotiated&quot;.  Nothing is more frustrating.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will never work for a union again.</p>

<p>I spent almost 10 years working in a union position, and it drove me nuts.  My job changed considerably over the 10 year period (in terms of responsibility), yet I never received more than my yearly pay increment.</p>

<p>The management uses the union to their advantage in these circumstances.  &#8220;We can&#8217;t negotiate a pay raise with you because your pay is collectively negotiated&#8221;.  Nothing is more frustrating.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dean</title>
		<link>http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-141669</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 23:13:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-141669</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;As a blogger, you don&#039;t need a union.   Your work should speak for itself.   If you start paying your hard earned cash to someone, it should be for a good reason, not to help prop up bloggers that can&#039;t cut it.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If you&#039;re blogging for someone that pays you, and you think you should get more money, set up something on blogger.com and go for it.  It&#039;s not hard.  If you&#039;re good, your audience will find you.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The people that want this are in it for money for political causes, THEIR political causes, not yours.   Remember that.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a blogger, you don&#8217;t need a union.   Your work should speak for itself.   If you start paying your hard earned cash to someone, it should be for a good reason, not to help prop up bloggers that can&#8217;t cut it.</p>

<p>If you&#8217;re blogging for someone that pays you, and you think you should get more money, set up something on blogger.com and go for it.  It&#8217;s not hard.  If you&#8217;re good, your audience will find you.</p>

<p>The people that want this are in it for money for political causes, THEIR political causes, not yours.   Remember that.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jeri</title>
		<link>http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-141593</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 21:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-141593</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;There are really two questions here - 1) would I join a union, and 2) would I join a blogger&#039;s union.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And the answer is - no and no.  If blogging were somehow creatively &quot;closed shop&quot; and a union card were a prerequisite, I&#039;d do something else.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;More importantly, though, the idea of a blogger&#039;s union doesn&#039;t make sense.  I disagree, I do believe the purpose of unionization is collective bargaining for improved working conditions, benefits, compensation and fair treatment.  None of those apply to a voluntary personal activity with no entry bar and no direct compensation. I&#039;ve read the arguments about why the concept does apply, and feel it&#039;s too big a stretch.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are really two questions here &#8211; 1) would I join a union, and 2) would I join a blogger&#8217;s union.</p>

<p>And the answer is &#8211; no and no.  If blogging were somehow creatively &#8220;closed shop&#8221; and a union card were a prerequisite, I&#8217;d do something else.</p>

<p>More importantly, though, the idea of a blogger&#8217;s union doesn&#8217;t make sense.  I disagree, I do believe the purpose of unionization is collective bargaining for improved working conditions, benefits, compensation and fair treatment.  None of those apply to a voluntary personal activity with no entry bar and no direct compensation. I&#8217;ve read the arguments about why the concept does apply, and feel it&#8217;s too big a stretch.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Christopher Estep</title>
		<link>http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-141546</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Estep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 20:58:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-141546</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;My first reaction to the whole &quot;blogger union&quot; notion is that it&#039;s laughable and stupid.  I&#039;m a conservative and a republican.  I&#039;ve been on both sides of a union (member and management) and by and large, I&#039;m vociferously anti-union.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;However...&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Upon further consideration, I can actually see a benefit to a blogger union, or association, if you will as long as it&#039;s done openly and equitably across the board.  What benefits?  Think about the main purpose of unions.  It isn&#039;t &quot;make more money&quot; or &quot;get better conditions&quot;.  Think more basic than that even.  The main purpose of unions is to allow people to negotiate as a collective unit where it&#039;s difficult and/or impossible to negotiate as an individual.   And what can be negotiated?  Treatment as media.  Access.  A standard way of determining what bloggers may or may not be eligible for media passes, for example.  My political blog most likely wouldn&#039;t be eligible unless they were openly given.  I don&#039;t have the readership.  But if you establish uniform criteria for determining eligibility, then yeah.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;There are other questions, like &quot;how would this benefit the little guy without placing a burden on someone else?&quot; and such.  But I actually think there&#039;s some potential there.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;So to answer the question, yeah I might.  As long as what&#039;s required of me isn&#039;t burdensome, my dues doesn&#039;t go for anything other than free press lobbying, and similar things, Yeah I might.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My first reaction to the whole &#8220;blogger union&#8221; notion is that it&#8217;s laughable and stupid.  I&#8217;m a conservative and a republican.  I&#8217;ve been on both sides of a union (member and management) and by and large, I&#8217;m vociferously anti-union.</p>

<p>However&#8230;</p>

<p>Upon further consideration, I can actually see a benefit to a blogger union, or association, if you will as long as it&#8217;s done openly and equitably across the board.  What benefits?  Think about the main purpose of unions.  It isn&#8217;t &#8220;make more money&#8221; or &#8220;get better conditions&#8221;.  Think more basic than that even.  The main purpose of unions is to allow people to negotiate as a collective unit where it&#8217;s difficult and/or impossible to negotiate as an individual.   And what can be negotiated?  Treatment as media.  Access.  A standard way of determining what bloggers may or may not be eligible for media passes, for example.  My political blog most likely wouldn&#8217;t be eligible unless they were openly given.  I don&#8217;t have the readership.  But if you establish uniform criteria for determining eligibility, then yeah.</p>

<p>There are other questions, like &#8220;how would this benefit the little guy without placing a burden on someone else?&#8221; and such.  But I actually think there&#8217;s some potential there.</p>

<p>So to answer the question, yeah I might.  As long as what&#8217;s required of me isn&#8217;t burdensome, my dues doesn&#8217;t go for anything other than free press lobbying, and similar things, Yeah I might.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: dmb038</title>
		<link>http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-141534</link>
		<dc:creator>dmb038</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 20:51:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-141534</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I personally would never join a union of any sort.  I believe that my pay should be as closely tied to productivity as possible.  When you&#039;re in a union, your pay is determined by individuals other than yourself, and your level of productivity rarely changes that fact.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;However, I do agree with Willie when he notes that the &quot;bloggers union&quot; isn&#039;t intended to be a union at all.  Bloggers don&#039;t have issues with poor working conditions, unfair business practices, or disproportionate or abusive management like factory or agriculture workers do.  This &quot;bloggers union&quot; is about political clout and credibility in the publishing world.  If bloggers want to pay dues to a union and receive absolutely no protections for those payments, they have the right to waste their money however they want.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally would never join a union of any sort.  I believe that my pay should be as closely tied to productivity as possible.  When you&#8217;re in a union, your pay is determined by individuals other than yourself, and your level of productivity rarely changes that fact.</p>

<p>However, I do agree with Willie when he notes that the &#8220;bloggers union&#8221; isn&#8217;t intended to be a union at all.  Bloggers don&#8217;t have issues with poor working conditions, unfair business practices, or disproportionate or abusive management like factory or agriculture workers do.  This &#8220;bloggers union&#8221; is about political clout and credibility in the publishing world.  If bloggers want to pay dues to a union and receive absolutely no protections for those payments, they have the right to waste their money however they want.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: CreativeLinks</title>
		<link>http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-141529</link>
		<dc:creator>CreativeLinks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 20:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-141529</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Oh no! Will all the Bloggers go on strike if their demands aren&#039;t met? Can you imagine what that would be like....um, actually it wouldn&#039;t be that bad.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh no! Will all the Bloggers go on strike if their demands aren&#8217;t met? Can you imagine what that would be like&#8230;.um, actually it wouldn&#8217;t be that bad.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Wille</title>
		<link>http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-141486</link>
		<dc:creator>Wille</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 19:33:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://webworkerdaily.com/2007/08/08/open-thread-would-you-join-a-union/#comment-141486</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I think viewing it as a &quot;union&quot; is misguided at best. Bloggers are if anything media entrepreneurs (regardless of what airmchair revolutionaries might want to admit) rather than a &quot;labour force&quot;.
Bloggers, if they even make money work for themselves, they do it on their own accord, for their own amusement of their own free will. I don&#039;t quite see who they would  &quot;bargain&quot; with?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Forming an interest group in terms of a &quot;cooperative&quot; however might be viable, in terms of negotiating better deals for health insurance, advertising etc for these blogging entrepreneurs.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But calling it a union? Please don&#039;t, it&#039;s just a cheap ploy by people who don&#039;t want to face reality and acknowledge they&#039;re actually participating as entrepreneurs in a capitalist economy.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think viewing it as a &#8220;union&#8221; is misguided at best. Bloggers are if anything media entrepreneurs (regardless of what airmchair revolutionaries might want to admit) rather than a &#8220;labour force&#8221;.
Bloggers, if they even make money work for themselves, they do it on their own accord, for their own amusement of their own free will. I don&#8217;t quite see who they would  &#8220;bargain&#8221; with?</p>

<p>Forming an interest group in terms of a &#8220;cooperative&#8221; however might be viable, in terms of negotiating better deals for health insurance, advertising etc for these blogging entrepreneurs.</p>

<p>But calling it a union? Please don&#8217;t, it&#8217;s just a cheap ploy by people who don&#8217;t want to face reality and acknowledge they&#8217;re actually participating as entrepreneurs in a capitalist economy.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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